Someone can help me with a PHRT16 - Iam from Germany

[OskarInDerTonne]

Hello,
I have a problem with the Technibel PHRT 16. My Instalateur have built me A Control for my Technibel PHRT 16. Its a LOGO From Siemens. He has not know that Technibel has her own Control for Heating ( parameter). Now the Problem ist the Technibel Control works and the Logo Control works two - but not synchronized. Means :
The control units didn´t know from each other. Is it possible to turn out the technibel control. So does only the Technibel switch on and switch out - without any Heating curve ( Courbe de chauffage) or something else.
Here in Germany I know noone who has a Technibel - so i call you

Greetings
Oskar

[stephk]

On demande George pour la traduction

[jld82]

First you must have the documentation , get this one from technibel server,
http://www.technibel.com/lang_uk/download.html , you may choise the model PHRT16 and your language.
You also can get documentation of K60D066Z to understand the temperature control and the command given to the PHR or PHRT and to an other firing generator.

Normaly this PHRT16 (or PAC) must work with an other generator like Technibel Electric energy MC10 (MCE10) that contain its own control unit AQUASET ( or K60D063Z) , this one control the PHRT16 AND the MCE10.
An other firing generator can be controled with K60D066Z(or other one) Technibel control unit, it can control the PAC and the firing unit.

You say you have two controls units ?
If you have't this Technibel material perhaps you want to use an existant control unit SIEMENS with EXTERNAL THERMAL capter, wich was existing in your home with other thermal generator unit (fuel or gaz firing).

The PHRT16 (the PAC) can be controled by a switch (or relay contact Normaly Open) on 1 and 2 entries in the PHRT16 (see documentation botton of page 6).
When this contact is closed the PAC is running , when it's open the PAC is in Stand-by (the water pump in the PAC is always running).

On the PHRT16 panel set/heat MUST be set to the max (45°C ???) so it did not control (or limit) the temperature needed for your home thermal terminals units . The controler's home temperature unit must do that like its control the firing unit.
Closing/Opening the switch or relay give the good power and water temperature controled by you existing controler.

The control unit must give priority to the PAC, if your control unit does not give to you this possibility perhaps an other thermostat (inverting contact) with can give this priority switching at 3°C external temperature for PAC to firing unit .

Lookout : the water MUST ALWAYS RUN in the PAC because the defrost function get energy in the water !!!

Good luck

[OskarInDerTonne]

On the PHRT16 panel set/heat MUST be set to the max (45°C ???) so it did not control (or limit) the temperature needed for your home thermal terminals units . The controler's home temperature unit must do that like its control the firing unit.
Closing/Opening the switch or relay give the good power and water temperature controled by you existing controler.

Good luck

Hallo,
my max. Temperature is 50° C. Do you mean when the Temperature is on max (50°C) the CAP will be controlled by the external controller.
Greetings

[Georges32]

Chapeau, jld82!

[jld82]

Let the PAC set/heat to the max 50°C.
What means CAP ? the PHRT16 (PAC) i suppose!
Yes the max water temperature 50°C of the PAC can limit the power given because the PAC will stop on 50°C+-2°C :the running cycle 80% falls to 30% , the resulting power falls!
This appends when indoor heating terminals units (radiators) are not large enough. Is you have radiators too small which need HOT WATER TEMPERATURE (greater then 50°C). You must increase surface by two or add new radiators or "ventilo-convectors" (like indoor units in clim. split system)

The external regulator (like K60D066Z or K60D067Z:proportional opening firing) must close or open the switch/relay to Start or standby the PAC. This cycle (5% to 95%) give the necessary power in the Water to cover the lost of your house.
If the heat given by the PAC is greater then necessary : the water temperature will get up , the regulator stop the PAC when water temperature is enough.
If the heat given by the PAC is lower than necessary the water temperature GET DOWN : the regulator can't work correctly , APPOINT MUST BE STARTED BEFORE the situation!!!
For example
For T° ext. +10°C : water temperature is 25°C (start) to 28°C (stop)
For T° ext. +5°C : water t° is 29°C (start) to 32°C (stop)
For T° ext. 0°C : water t° is 33°C (start) to 36°C (stop)
And so on .This give the heating curve (it's a line) .
There is limits : when the external temperature is going to negative the home lost are going up and the PAC power(when running 100%) is going down (COP decrease) .
These two curves (heating needs and PAC power) show you the external temperature where PAC alone can't give enough power : appoint power (fuel firing for example) must start before having indoor temperature going down or water temperature going down(when PAC running).
Don't forget the defrost power near 0°C!

[OskarInDerTonne]

Hallo,first many thx for all. I have no external regulator like K60D066Z or K60D067Z. My external regulator ist Siemens Logo. What happened if I set the parameter C08 from 1 to 0. Can I determine than the point too switch the PHRT on and off with the external control (Siemens logo) ?
The PHRT only must run when the Siemens regulator say on or off. The Siemens regulator make all the other things.
The Siemens is on Point 1 and 2 connected on the PHRT Plate.

[jld82]

Hallo,first many thx for all. I have no external regulator like K60D066Z or K60D067Z. My external regulator ist Siemens Logo. What happened if I set the parameter C08 from 1 to 0. Can I determine than the point too switch the PHRT on and off with the external control (Siemens logo) ?
The PHRT only must run when the Siemens regulator say on or off. The Siemens regulator make all the other things.
The Siemens is on Point 1 and 2 connected on the PHRT Plate.

C08 can be set to 0 when the water quantity is greater than mini 60 liters : " 1 mean REDUCTION VOLUME D'EAU" , it protect the compressor when water quantity is too small.
Your hydraulic system must contain 60 liters mini and 90 liters maxi .

Can I determine than the point too switch the PHRT on and off with the external control (Siemens logo) ? I don't understand your question.
When the PHRT is always running ( or 80% or near 0°C and many defrost) is't time to active appoint firing before this critical situation. You can choose an external temperature(+3°) or a water temperature(+37°). This depend of home lost and heating terminals.

You have connect correctly the Siemens regulator to points 1 and 2 in the PHRT plate : if the contact is closed the PHRT start , if open the PHRT is standby

[OskarInDerTonne]

Hallo,first many thx for all. I have no external regulator like K60D066Z or K60D067Z. My external regulator ist Siemens Logo. What happened if I set the parameter C08 from 1 to 0. Can I determine than the point too switch the PHRT on and off with the external control (Siemens logo) ?
The PHRT only must run when the Siemens regulator say on or off. The Siemens regulator make all the other things.
The Siemens is on Point 1 and 2 connected on the PHRT Plate.

C08 can be set to 0 when the water quantity is greater than mini 60 liters : " 1 mean REDUCTION VOLUME D'EAU" , it protect the compressor when water quantity is too small.
Your hydraulic system must contain 60 liters mini and 90 liters maxi .

My System has a mémoire d'amortisseur chauffage 200l

Can I determine than the point too switch the PHRT on and off with the external control (Siemens logo) ? I don't understand your question.
When the PHRT is always running ( or 80% or near 0°C and many defrost) is't time to active appoint firing before this critical situation. You can choose an external temperature(+3°) or a water temperature(+37°). This depend of home lost and heating terminals.


You have connect correctly the Siemens regulator to points 1 and 2 in the PHRT plate : if the contact is closed the PHRT start , if open the PHRT is standby

But the PHRT makes her own - for example:
The Siemens starts the PHRT while heating water. But before the water is on his 45 C° (for example 41 °) the PHRT stops (standby) and after a few minutes the PHRT starts again.

[vile-coyote]

But the PHRT makes her own - for example:
The Siemens starts the PHRT while heating water. But before the water is on his 45 C° (for example 41 °) the PHRT stops (standby) and after a few minutes the PHRT starts again.

hello,
in that case it means that, logo is waiting for heating, due to insufficient heating, but the PHRT stop because reaching limit value.(45°C)
try to change the corresponding parameters, in PHRT to increase the reference value for the PHRT.
if your PHRT regulation basic value are lower than your request from LOGO, you willl never have a good regulation.

[OskarInDerTonne]

[

You have connect correctly the Siemens regulator to points 1 and 2 in the PHRT plate : if the contact is closed the PHRT start , if open the PHRT is standby

That works but:
Is it possible that only when the siemens give the signal
On -> The PHRT starts. And when the Siemens give the signal to stop - the PHRT stops.
and nothing else -only to defrost .

[jld82]

When the Siemens regulator is in demand (the relay is closed) the PHRT start , the INTERNAL regulator ECH210BDT and its temperature captors sd1 to sd4 (tp1 to tp4) have many functions other than defrost.
It may stop the compressor to preserv it (even if the Siemens regul. is in demand) : i does't know exactly these internals functions(read PHRT doc. ch. 5 page 8 to 12)
- High temperature
- High pressure security
- Low pressure securiy
- ????
- internal heating rule made by h31,h33,h35 and perhaps G02 (maxi water temperature : in your case 50°C).
I does't know correctly this fonction but georges32 (the best one is theses materials!) say that this function can be deactivate with h31=0

On my PHR11 i have seen during defrost function that the compressor stop while the defrost function was going on : defrost has been no good , one hour later a correct defrost was executed without problem (I do anything !).
My cycle is 15mn running and 20mn standby for an external temperature of 3°C (no defrost needed).

You have a 200l ballon : do you connect directly the water inlet/outlet to the ballon (with the filter) , the water must be directly and correctly mixed inside the ballon. See the hydraulic schema in the K60D066Z doc. page 4 , your ballon must do the "DECOUPLING BOTTLE OR BALLON" function so flowrate/PHRT and Radiators flowrate can be different.
Be carrefull : if the ballon water temperature is high (the PHRT may stop on 50°C), the COP is no good , heating must rapidely go to the radiators (circulator always running , radiators taps OPEN and no thermostatic one) for having water temperature has low as possible for the PHRT(good COP).

Can you say to us if the radiators circulator in STARTED/STOPPED by the siemens regulator?

You can see if the water flowrate (débit d'eau) is correct for the PHRT16 , it must be 2.7m3/h , you can use the Technibel method (water presure before/after water pump (circulator) in the PHRT and circulator curve Water flowrate/Manometric pressure in doc. PHRT page 17).

An other method when normal heating (compressor is running and no defrost) without any problem :
After five minuts mesure on the PHRT the temperature tp1,tp2,tp3,tp4. The deltaT=tp2-tp1 must be greater that 5°C(flowrate too fast) and lower than 7°C (flowrate too slow).

Give to us many values of tp1,tp2,tp3,tp4 at time 2mn,4mn,6mn,... (or 5,10,15,...mn) up to the stop of the PHRT.
Give the times of RUNNING (15mn?) and STANDBY (25mn?) (named ratio or cycle) and the external temperature (tp4) ?
The leds on the panel ECH210 (see doc. page 7 chapter 5.3.1) are blinking ? Wich one are blinking alone or together?
When the Siemens regulator stop : the PHRT go in standby mode the two led 4 et 5 (heating and cooling) are blinking together (see ch. 5.5 page 8 ).
Give to us any blinking led when compressor stops!
Give to us any alarms E01 or E44 (A PHRT internal PROBLEM exist only in this case) , ... see page 10 and 11 (you can see also C08=0 ) .

[OskarInDerTonne]

Its a long time since I was the last time here. Now I will tell you something about my Technibel PHRT 16. First take a look to my PHRT:
http://www.familie-baur1991.de/html/wp_bilder.html
and the current data you can see at:
http://www.familie-baur1991.de/html/aktuelle_daten.html
So I have learned a lot - from you and from my Technibel. But still I'm not smartly enough.
I have no Heating engineer who can help me - so I must learn the PHRT from myself. But I still don't know a lot of parameter. I have changed this Parameter:
1. CNF Parameter H20 changed from 7 to 4 (the Siemens Logo switch the PHRT)
2. CP Parameter C04 changed from 2 up to 4
3. CP Parameter C08 changed from 1 up to 0
4. CNF Parameter H31 changed from 1 up to 0
The warm water in my house makes a Chauffage au gaz.
So the Technibel is alone for heating.
if you see on the Pictures on my Homepage - my Technibel is changed to a split.
So no Water goes outside the House - only refrigerant. So there is no need to start the water pump at 0°. but I don't know the Parameter to stop this. Maybee someone can help me. I also want the
Services Intranet et Extranet de Technibel
so I can look for the
- les fichiers pdf des notices
- les vues éclatées
- les listes de pièces détachées.
Maybee someone of you can give me this Documents in German or English

if you have Questions - your welcome. If someone have Improvement suggestions (Propositions d'amélioration ) thats great.

Greetings from Germany

Ibo

[ACH31]

I have a look on your installation, you made big modification on the PHRT to make it a split!

I think that the parameter to change for the pump is "A11", you can put in at -10, wich is the minimum.

I have also a PHRT 16, and a real time synoptic you can see it at :

http://tpsreel.fqv.free.fr/

The photovoltaic datas will be active in a few days, the installation is being finish today.

I am in the south of France near the Pyrenees montain.

For documentaion, I use this information :
list of parameters (in french) :
http://pompechaleur.free.fr/Documentati ... HRT_16.pdf
Description of the regulator(in english) :
http://pompechaleur.free.fr/Documentati ... H200BD.pdf

[Georges32]

Bonsoir ACH31:
Toutes mes félicitations: réponse en anglais, et en plus, en stéréo
Au fait, je risque de passer chez toi demain soir si tu es là. Mais, ce n'est pas tout à fait sûr, car je ne sais pas à quelle heure je vais terminer demain soir à Monsérié.
A + Georges32